Photo by Ha-Wee
The Case for Early Marriage: Amid our purity pledges and attempts to make chastity hip, we forgot to teach young Christians how to tie the knot.
Just seeing the words “The Case for Early Marriage” on the Christianity Today website caused me to seize up inside. It was an automatic physiological response—the bodily equivalent to shouting “Oh no!”
After all, Jason and I have both determined that marrying our first spouses too young is at the heart of why those marriages failed. We’ve had many long discussions about how our beliefs, families and church communities led us—directly or indirectly—into marriage (at age 22 for me and my first husband, 20 for Jason and his first wife).
We’ve spent even more time talking about how we want our three daughters to understand their sexuality, relationships, and eventually marriage. And although we’re not quite sure how we’ll communicate the message, we’ve decided that waiting to get married (loosely defined as some time after 25) is more important than waiting to have sex. (I wrote about this in more detail in the post Politics, religion & sex.)
Now a Christian author and thinker is blatantly encouraging people to get married at a younger age? Even more so than the church already does? It’s alarming.
There isn’t a formula for love and happiness
I can agree with certain things the article’s author, Mark Regnerus, says. “The [abstinence] message [of the church] must change,” he writes. I agree. Regnerus also suggests that the church has placed too much focus on sex—on not having it, to be exact. I agree with that, too.
I just don’t agree with where he takes the argument from there—to a case for earlier marriages. And I can’t wrap my head around how encouraging Christians to marry younger, as a rule, will help anything or anyone.
Is there any real evidence that marrying at a young age is the key to happiness, any more than waiting until marriage to have sex? And are those Christians who marry in their 30s after having sex doomed to a train wreck of a marriage and sex life? Hardly. It absolutely all depends on the two people in question. Period.
Am I devoting too much energy to the wrong issue?
But as I thought through all my protestations and logical arguments and better approaches, I kept returning to the same elemental question:
How and when did the church decide to elevate certain issues above others?
Is it because, as sinful behaviors go, sex is more black and white? You either have it or you don’t; you’re either married to that person or you aren’t? Alcoholism and porn addiction, on the other hand, can be trickier to pinpoint. How can you be sure when those lines have been crossed?
If you think those sins are fuzzy, what about these: Pride, anger, greed, an unforgiving heart, and placing “other gods before you.” Those fall into categories so thick with grey, soupy fog, you can’t begin to see clearly. So maybe the church feels it’s just easier to put those things on the back burner and elevate the “big,” obvious sins.
Shifting the focus from sex and early marriage to love and compassion
All of these thoughts lead me to a followup question: What are we ignoring while we’re in the process of spending so much time and energy focused on these few particular issues?
What would the world look like, for instance, if the church spent as much time teaching our teenagers to love others with compassion, as we spend pounding the “no-sex-outside-of-marriage” message into their heads? What if we, as parents, spent more time guiding our children on the journey of discovering who God created them to be, and less time telling them what the Bible says they’re not supposed to do?
What would marriages look like if churches began honestly addressing the many, varied ways we sin against one another within marriage, rather than only focusing on those sins that take place outside of legal marriage?
Which ultimately leads me to wonder this: What did/does Jesus want most for us? To be compassionate and merciful? To forgive freely? To love our neighbors as ourselves, and to love God? And if we focused more on those things, would everything else—healthy, fulfilling sex and relationships included—fall more organically into place, as God intended?
{ 2 trackbacks }
{ 55 comments… read them below or add one }
Your “what if” questions led me to a striking hypothesis. If love, compassion and especially tolerance became the mantra, I believe fewer young people would leave the church in search of greater belonging and acceptance. A nurturing environment, particularly one that supports discussion of differences and doubts, is one that will foster happy, healthy relationships.
I’m not sure how I feel about this. I know firsthand the challenges and joys of marrying early. I look around at later marriages and don’t feel they are any stronger or happier than mine…just different. On the one hand, I do think there are things you learn about yourself in your early 20s that will make you a better husband or wife. On the other hand, sometimes the emphasis on ‘waiting’ bothers me because I don’t think early marriage is any kind of failure or recipe for disaster, and I also believe there is such a thing as waiting too long, or waiting for something unrealistic.
So, I guess I’m torn. :) But I do agree with you that there is far too much emphasis on the sex-before-marriage issue. To me, that’s entirely separate from the marriage issue (though I do understand why they are so interconnected).
I agree that the discussion on sex should change, but I wouldn’t try to disconnect the link between pre-marital sex and marital happiness. Sex is as much psychological as it is physical, and being involved in something so emotionally charge without commitment, understanding, or respect can lead to serious psychological scares, which in turn will move with that person into any marriage they ever have. Questions of fidelity, trust, honor and respect will permeate the marriage. In marriage, doubting these things leads to unhappiness. I know this is true. I’ve seen it over and over again. So I would caution that we not discount the link between premarital sex and marital happiness, if by doing so we undermine our own efforts to educate and guide or children towards happiness.
I love what you’ve written. It seems to me like the issue isn’t so much about age, per se, but why it is that age matters. People, in general, want to have sex. Telling people to wait until they are married AND telling them not to get married young is a painful way to tell them to ignore their nature. Now, on the other hand, telling people to marry young, with a wink and a nudge at the impending fulfillment of their primal urges is also not right. People should be getting married for the right reasons; love, partnership, and friendship among them.
Sex isn’t talked about openly in our society, and especially not discussed openly in most religious circles. It shouldn’t be a defining characteristic of married/not married. I think we’d all rather see people having (responsible) sex before (a successful, lasting, loving) marriage than seeing kids jump into marriage just so they can “do the deed” without guilt.
Ryan, based on your criteria, could one not make the case for forging a stronger link between committed sex and marital happiness. I do realize this is an age-old argument we could go round and round upon and I don’t discount that pre-marital sex can have negative consequences. However, shouldn’t emphasis be placed on commitment, understanding and respect as prerequisites for sex rather than whether the sex was within marriage?
Jennifer–Yes, commitment, understanding and respect should be prerequisites for sex, and if I were the one having that conversation with my son or daughter, it would naturally lead to marriage. After all, isn’t that what marriage means? Commitment, understanding, and respect? Then why not married? You can commit to being emotionally attached and creating babies, but you can’t commit to marriage? Seems marriage should still come first, even with your argument.
Ryan – I think part of the issue with your argument is that it implies that one should marry the first person they are ready to have sex with. I think you can have commitment and attachment without being ready to be married.
Entering into your first truly committed relationship full of respect and love is a growth process. Some couples grow up together, but others discover more of themselves and begin to deeply understand what they need (and don’t need) in a relationship. However, without really giving 100% of yourself to a relationship, which for me includes sex, I don’t think its possible to know if you’re truly compatible. If this relationship requires marriage, then won’t many end in unhappiness, infidelity and/or divorce?
I come at this from both a clergy perspective and a personal perspective. First, the personal. My husband and I have been together since high school. We started dating our senior year and were head over heels in love from the start. But we didn’t get married until seven and a half years later. We were both twenty-five at the time.
Now – could/should we have gotten married earlier? It certainly would have taken all of the family pressure off. It would have taken all of those comments about “living in sin” away. It might have been more socially acceptable. But we weren’t ready.
My husband and I changed a lot in our early 20’s. We wrestled with life goals, with vocation (especially whether I was going to be a pastor or not), with where was the best place to get our education. We spent a lot of time living a part, a lot of time living in different states. Our marriage is based on the fact that we are individuals who choose to love one another – and to be individuals, we needed the room to go where we were called.
What kept us together? I’m not sure. I’m not sure if it was sheer stubbornness, or if we were always that committed to one another. Or if no matter how we changed, we kept coming back to the fact that we still wanted to be a part of one another’s lives. Had we married early, I think we might have felt obligated to stay together. After seven and a half years – we knew that we wanted to. We knew what it meant to make that kind of commitment.
We didn’t let all of the social pressures tell us what we should do. We waited until we were absolutely to say yes for a lifetime.
I’m in no rush to get married, especially after seeing the faces of those people who already have and are my age, and many who already have children. I understand that for some they are happy and this is good, but it’s not the right thing for me, and I don’t like that society/religion/whatever pressures you to do so.
I think sometimes the pressure to get married early is an attempt to make it easier to keep vows of chastity–obviously, the longer you wait, the greater the chance of a transgression, right? But there really isn’t any honor in not sinning because you weren’t exposed to the temptation–I would think that Christians would value abstaining even more in the context of a long, compassionate courtship that may test you at times, but which has the end goal of a happy union created at the right time.
I don’t see a need for abstinence from premarital sex–unfortunately, many Christians seem to take the idea that an unmarried union cannot be fully committed. I think this may relate to the fact that they believe the ceremony itself instills the couple with a special “grace” or “blessing” that no unmarried couple can get from God. I highly disagree with that, but then again, I don’t consider myself a Christian anymore. I think if you really think something fundamentally changes about your relationship when you have a Church ceremony, then you’ll be pro-abstinence. If you don’t, you won’t see the difference. But it’s extremely dangerous to think that the ceremony can fix or increase a commitment that’s broken or lacking before marriage. Please think about the message THAT sends to your children. Please think about the potential heartache when they find out it’s not true.
How wasteful. How absolutely wasteful that we spend all this time telling people that a ceremony makes the difference, instead of worrying about whether they can have a 100% committed, sexual, healthy relationship, without anyone else’s sanction or permission. For those of you who say that sex is major, and physiological, and emotional–I say, all the more reason to have it before marriage. The way these individuals handle issues of commitment, sexual generosity, and physiological stews say SO MUCH about the kind of people they are, the kind of care and compassion they can have for one another. Your sexuality is too big a part of your identity to not fully understand about one another (BEFORE you decide on forever and always).
Sex: Don’t get engaged without it.
Now – clergy perspective (sheesh, this is long and maybe a little bitter). Almost all of the couples I have married are in their mid 20’s – late 30’s. They are often couples whom other churches in my area won’t marry, because they live together, they have kids out of wedlock, they are in second or third marriages. So while it is unspoken, that pressure to marry early, to have a “pure” marriage, is definately out there.
As I was talking with other pastors recently, I expressed my frustration over the fact that these couples aren’t allowed to get married other places because they were “living in sin.” Wasn’t the refusal of the pastor to untie them only perpetuating the “problem.”
I in some ways prefer to marry these couples. I find that because of all of the stuff that has gone before, it is so much easier to talk seriously and deeply about why this commitment, this covenant, this marriage is important. When I ask them, “why?” they have honest answers.
That’s not to say that young couples don’t. That’s not to say that the promises they make won’t themselves hold a couple together through all of the changes that will come their way.
I think the church tends to encourage early marriage for a number of reasons.
1) it represents a blind leap of faith and commitment, just like much of our Christian journey. We don’t know what we are getting ourselves into, and that’s kind of the beauty of it. (as a pastor said recently at the marriage of a friend – if we knew what marriage was all about, we wouldn’t do it)
2)because the church doesn’t want to talk about sex in a real way. It doesn’t want to admit that there are healthy sexual relationships outside of marriage. It doesn’t want to admit that there is marital rape and sexual unsatisfaction and adultery in marriage. You mention in the article that sex is black and white, either you’re having it or your not, but it is far from that simple. What about masturbation, what about petting and oral sex, what about fantasy, what about role play? The church wants to keep it black and white – good/bad, yes/no, in marriage/not out of it it – but it is actually such a complex issue that we don’t even know where to begin (society doesn’t really either, btw)
3) marriage is the center of the culture war. gay marriage/divorce/children out of wedlock/single parents… I have no idea how this has happened but each of these are seen as threats to the foundations of Christianity. I absolutely disagree and I think that if we really looked at a “biblical” understanding of marriage – we would be far from impressed. Property exchange, rape leading to marriage, multiple wifes/concubines, inequal gender views, male head and silent submissive female… (alright, i’m focusing on some of the negative images… forgive me for a minute.)
Yet the church has created its own narrative of a loving and doting young couple who save themselves from temptation for one another and live happily ever after and the church has put all of its faith in that narrative as what will save it from impending doom.
It seems the article and comments are geared towards adapting to a broken system instead of fixing the system. People can’t control their sexual desires, so they have premarital sex. Now we have to make premarital sex okay and un-damaging, so let’s make up some arguments to support that. And divorce is painful and expensive, and it’s bound to happen, so let’s not get married but demand everything that marriage entails. Because obviously we’re going to be different people in a few years, and what if I decide I don’t like him, and what if I just can’t stand the way he butters his bread! In short, because I know by nature I’m selfish and undisciplined, I’m going to rework the system to cater to selfish and undisciplined people and expect everything to be great. Because fixing myself is too much trouble, might as well give in and create a new social system to justify my lack of trying.
The social evidence abounds when it comes to the effects of live-in relationships and the negative effects of pre-martial relations. But think of it this way. Think that the end goal is a stable, secure relationship in which children can be raised to become the best people they can. And you have two ways (with infinite variations) to get there. One, you bring two people together that can “commit” enough to have sex, but only want the sex, everything selfish, and no commitment beyond that, and if kids come along it’s going to be a big pain, and of course there is less need to actually work things out and put everything into the relationship because hey! you’re not married!
Or…
Bring together two people raised to have self-control, put the needs of others before their own–yes, let’s put these two people together, let them commit to a lasting relationship, and let them have the goal of raising children, children they actually want, and teaching them too to control themselves and put the needs of the family first.
Think of the strength a child would have knowing his or her parents were, are, and always will be committed to each other and the needs of the family before their own selfish desires? Then think of the social disconnect, the fear of commitment, the doubt of stability a child would have knowing their parent’s relationship was founded on their inability to control themselves.
You say, have sex before marriage because trying to control it will only lead to an early, unwise decision to marry. I say, your control is no control at all; you’re not truly in control if you can’t make a wise decision about marriage before doing it. So, abstinence before marriage, yes, which by logic concludes control before marriage. You say, until I’m mature and able to commit I won’t get married, but I might as well have sex in the meantime. I say, you underestimate the damage premarital sex will cause. I promise you premarital sex will do your future relationship no favors. On the other hand, abstinence will give your future marriage much needed trust and confidence, knowing your spouse has controlled themselves and put your before any other.
NB: While abstinence is a popular idea in churches, it appears to not be very popular in the real world: “by age 44, 95% of respondents had had premarital sex.”
From data on people from 1950s to 2003:
http://www.publichealthreports.org/userfiles/122_1/12_PHR122-1_73-78.pdf
Ryan – Recent research suggests that premarital cohabitation DOESN’T have a negative impact – http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2008-07-28-cohabitation-research_N.htm
You’re mixing too many ideas here. Sex does not define one’s ability to control themselves. Don’t you think there can be commitment without marriage? Of course, some of your wording strongly points to the gay marriage issue, but I suppose that’s off-topic here.
If you need abstinence until marriage to have trust and confidence in your relationship, then you have other issues to tackle. There’s so much more to a relationship, a marriage, than your sexual experience. Your relationship, your marriage, should likewise be based on more than just that.
Jason, you’re quick to cite research but slow to explain it. If your goal is sex, by all means move in. If your goal is healthy, happy children in a stable marriage, don’t have premarital sex. The research you cite on cohabitation mentions the increase in divorce if children are involved. Thinking cohabitation doesn’t matter is thinking too short-sighted. It’s thinking selfishly. If one argument will stick out to you in my jumble of words, it’s that the children matter. They matter more than you and me. I’m using the example of a healthy, committed marriage as the best way to raise good children. If you can’t see that by looking around in the “real world” or in your own life, then no matter of research will convince you either.
Ryan, you’re making several false assumptions that are entirely supporting your arguments:
1-People who have premarital sex have no self-control, and do not choose to ever control their sexual urges or use them selectively (not true), and that they are commitment-phobic, selfish, and undisciplined. How about the possibility that they just disagree that marriage means something special? How about, while you’ve built your concept of sexuality around one, certain tradition, they’ve built it around another?
2-Premarital sex is damaging and broken in the first place–you’ve provided no convincing evidence for that, only your own insistence. In fact, premarital abstinence was NOT a part of early Church teachings, and only came into regular application once issues of primogeniture and verifying paternity for property inheritance became an issue. Check it out.
3-People who have premarital sex assume the likelihood of divorce–while this may be true of some people, I’ve found that more assume the likelihood of divorce in a rushed courtship.
4-The entire point of marriage is happy, heaven-worthy children–I suppose that’s entirely a matter of opinion, and I heartily disagree.
5-That the other commenters on this post all believe that early marriage will definitely lead to dysfunctional relationships or divorces–I don’t think anyone’s saying that. Most seem to just think the pressure to apply the early marriage solution to all relationships is too cookie-cutter to work for everyone.
6-People who have premarital sex do not want children–I think the numbers would prove you wrong there. Many, many unmarried couples (who either don’t want marriage at this point or know they never will) want children and already have children who were wanted and anticipated. Those numbers are growing.
7-Children of unmarried parents are screwed up and feel that their parents are undisciplined and unloving. The only children who feel that way are the ones who are genuinely products of bad relationships (often married ones). Or children who’ve spoken to you about how much you disapprove of their parents.
I’ve seen healthy relationships between people who did not have premarital sex. And I’m willing to acknowledge that there’s a place for that. But I’ve seen more relationships (the vast majority of contemporary relationships) that included premarital sex, relationships which have been healthy and thriving for years. So Ryan, I’ll give you two choices, just like the ones you gave us: 1–continue to close your eyes to the reality around you, and insist that any relationships that include sex outside of marriage are doomed, bad, and sick (in other words, look for the negatives in a situation that doesn’t meet with your approval; or 2–Be open to the possibility that each conflicting opinion on this post represents a separate path to happiness and respect, that people who live differently from you have just as much a shot as you do.
Thanks for the rousing debate!
I think the big thing we are discussing here is what the purpose of marriage is.
Some of the answers I can discern from these comments, article, and blog are (in no particular order):
a) a healthy, preferred means to have and raise children.
b) an archaic religious convention
c) an option among many for a long term committed relationship.
d) a relationship built on understanding, respect, commitment
e) a civil contract
f) a religious covenant
g) the only appropriate relationship for sexual activity.
h) a commitment between two individuals who grow and change and fluxuate throughout time
i) forever.
j) the “end goal” / final stage of commitment
To be honest – we don’t have one definition of marriage in the world today. Technically, as far as my state (Iowa) is concerned – “marriage is a civil contract
between two persons who must be (1) 18 years of age or older; (2) not already or still legally married to someone else or to each other; (3) not closely related by blood or first cousins; and (4) legally competent to enter into a civil contract.” But that’s not the same as the next state over, and that in no way defines what any justice of the peace or licensed/ordained clergy person may require or how they may define it.
In other words, this is a great discussion to be having!!! =)
Genevieve,
1-If they think marriage means nothing, then at least they found someone who thinks likewise.
2-Those I know who had premarital sex (and especially those who had children before marriage) have had more marital problems than those who have married, waited to have sex, and waited to have children. These are all family members and friends–not just my insistence.
3-I doubt people having premarital sex think anything of divorce. Why would they? That’s why they’re having premarital sex. But if they were considering marriage, and they knew their partner had lived unmarried with other partners before, don’t you think that would factor into the equation?
4-okay.
5-”definitely” is too strong a word, but I think it makes your point. However, marriage is in no way cookie cutter. Socially, it’s a formal act that signifies two individuals’ dedication to each other. Why would two people who really love each other not want that?
6-Those rising numbers scare me just as much as unwise early marriage scares me.
7-I think here I’d have to say “lay off,” your hubris is showing through. In no way are these children screwed up. They miss the opportunity to have the strength I know a traditional marriage brings, but by no means are they forsaken or without support. Single moms, broken families, unfortunate death of a parent, and yes, even unmarried parents–these are the things children live with every day and when these situations don’t serve to weaken and bring despair, they strengthen and give these individuals resolve to do better and try harder. But it’s not ideal.
My goal is not a mild happiness and respect. I want perfection. I won’t make it now or in this life, but I want it. I’m trying to do what it takes to get it. And it takes a lot–a lot of hard work, a lot of praying, evaluating, and tireless trial and error. Some people don’t want that. They don’t want to work that hard for what they see as un-beneficial. They think they have better things to do. How could I judge poorly of them? Some days that’s me. That’s all of us. But I would want to encourage them to learn something better. People will live differently whether I like it or not; my main concern is whether I’m setting a worthy example or not.
Ryan, you mentioned striving for perfection – for seeking the best that we can be and mentioned “tireless trial and error” to get there.
Ironically, that trial and error, that endless seeking for perfection is exactly what leads so many people to engage in casual and reckless sexual experiences. But it also is what leads people to deeply commit themselves to someone – emotionally, sexually, etc – and then realize that the relationship is not “meant to be.” This happens in both pre-marital and marital relationships.
You are right that not everyone understands the deep connection between sex and intimacy. There are a lot of people out there who just want the instant gratification and none of the work, and many people are hurt through that. But I think in some ways, you also lump all kinds of premarital sexual activity together.
There are lots of reasons committed people choose not to get married. They may simply be rebelling against social convention, but have in their hearts the same deep and lasting level of commitment a married couple does. They may have been deeply hurt through the breakup of a marriage and/or experiencing what it is like when people hurt one another in a marriage – and refuse to enter the same institution themselves out of fear, need for healing. They may be too busy/too poor… both of which are tied to societal ideas of what it means to have a marriage ceremony, and has nothing to do with their levels of commitment for one another.
All relationships are hard work.
And to speak the truth, marriage really sucks sometimes. Some days you look over at your spouse and wonder how on earth they were let out of the insane asylum. Sometimes you wonder how on earth you were let out of the insane asylum. No marriage is perfect. No marriage is free of problems. And it doesn’t matter if you get married when you are 18, 25, 50 or 85. What does matter is how committed you are to riding those storms, how much ability you have to say yes, I choose keep loving you even though you never scoop the cat poop, even though you really hurt me with what you said after dinner last night, even though I can’t stand your opinion on that political issue. A big reason I would advocate getting married later is that I’m not convinced that before the age of 25 we have that level of emotional maturity. Some of us do, but not all.
Sex is only one small part of marriage – and to talk about it as the only part leads too many to enter marriage to soon, and too many to give up when the spark turns to a smoldering ember.
As I was re-reading this post and reading through the comments, it struck me that one of your points sort of got lost: What are we ignoring while we’re in the process of spending so much time and energy focused on these few particular issues?
With so much focus on sex and romantic relationships, there isn’t room to focus on other aspects of the conversation. Marriage is so much more than just the sex aspect and by placing so much emphasis on it, we’re losing the opportunity to teach the next generation about other qualities that are just as important in a marriage – honesty, love, compassion, understanding, etc. And these are qualities that are valuable in other types of relationships as well (parent/child, siblings, friends, even strangers).
My take-away from your post, Kristen, is that we should be teaching children to be good people in all kinds of relationships, essentially having a broader view of the issue. Children and teens who are happy and secure in themselves and their lives are less likely to be talked into something they’re not comfortable with – whether it’s premarital sex or early marriage (and no, I don’t have a statistic or reference for that, but it sounds good, doesn’t it?).
Wow, everyone. I’m loving this discussion. Thanks everyone for keeping it so civil and constructive, and for sharing from your own experiences as well as your understanding. It’s going to take me a while to sort through and respond to everyone, but I just wanted to let you know how great you all are. I’ll start responding to a few of you now, then will be back later with more.
Jennifer, I completely agree with this: “If love, compassion and especially tolerance became the mantra, I believe fewer young people would leave the church in search of greater belonging and acceptance.” I think it’s really important that we ask ourselves how this whole issue (and others like it) contributes to people walking away from God and their faith communities. I’m not saying we should make everything about faith easy, permissive, and lenient. I don’t think that’s what people actually want. But they do want to be heard, and loved, and understood, not judged and condemned.
Meagan, this is a great point: “…sometimes the emphasis on ‘waiting’ bothers me because I don’t think early marriage is any kind of failure or recipe for disaster, and I also believe there is such a thing as waiting too long, or waiting for something unrealistic.” I wanted to make sure I said, at some point, that I don’t believe marrying young is a recipe for disaster. I just think waiting until you know a bit more about yourself can increase the odds of marrying someone who’s a good fit. When two people marry young and it works for them, I don’t believe it works *because* they married young—it works because of who they are, as individuals and as a couple.
Ryan, this is just in response to your first comment, for starters. :) I just don’t agree that the link between pre-marital sex and marital happiness is that clear, but I guess you know that. I’m pretty sure my first marriage was far more damaged by the “sex is bad” mantra and the guilt that ran through my head as a teenager. We were also just ill-suited for one another, and naive. Anyway, thanks for continuing in this discussion—I hope it’s more energizing than frustrating! I’ll be back with more, later.
Ryan – You said that “If your goal is healthy, happy children in a stable marriage, don’t have premarital sex.” This seems like a really slanted view. It disregards the fact that (abstaining from) premarital sex isn’t a strong indicator of marital success and/or happiness It ignores the fact that my sex life shouldn’t be affecting my children.
As for the research on cohabitation I mentioned, the only added divorce risk that children bring is for women bringing children into a second marriage.
I am a child of divorced parents. Of course, my mother brought a child into her second marriage (with my father), so maybe they were doomed. In the end, what affected them was their relationship and not being able to manage their conflicts. I’m not going to sit here and blame it on premarital sex or whatever, because that’s ultimately short-sighted. They didn’t belong together, and we’re all better off that they separated. On the other hand, just because someone got divorced doesn’t mean they’re no longer a good parent. I know many divorced people who still have frequent positive contact with their former spouses and their kids benefit from what amounts to an even larger family.
Yes, it is beneficial for children to grow up in a loving, caring household. That can be easier with two parents. Sometimes… often perhaps, this isn’t always in a traditional, happy heterosexual marriage. Single parents can love and care for and provide for their children very well, and a married man and woman can yell at each other every night. Two men or women can love each other and be in a committed relationship and take care of a number of kids better than some couples who have decided to wait until they’re 30 to get married and have sex. There’s no one magic solution to creating a good marriage and happy, healthy kids. Stop putting people in boxes and realize that there are plenty of people out there who are in happy, successful situations that may not fit into your narrow view of right and wrong.
It seems as if the case for early marriage is an ill-conceived solution to the inarguable fact that abstinence-only doesn’t work.
While I don’t think marrying late makes you any more successful in marriage than marrying early, I do think it gives you a better chance at achieving the maturity to do so.
Jason,
Indeed my view of right is very narrow, but my view of wrong is certainly not. I think this is what Jesus was referring to in the Sermon on the Mount when he said, “Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat”. The gate to right is narrow, specific. The gate of destruction is large and people will find infinite ways to get there if they want.
Ryan, the issue I have is that your narrow idea of “right” is what’s limiting your ability to accept other valid ways. This is not a case of Jesus telling us that premarital sex is wrong or that marriage is the only option for everyone. We need to accept that there are a great many good choices that people can make that don’t fit into the “right” things you’ve mentioned here. After all, it’s not your duty to judge other people’s decisions, but to support them in their times of need and to love them as yourself.
Because, as you said on your own site, “I don’t want to say here that everything is neither right nor wrong, or that it doesn’t matter what you choose in life.
But 99% of the time: It doesn’t matter.”
These minutiae of premarital sex, cohabitation, and age are, in the greater scheme of things, not all that important. What does matter is the relationship between the people, and that cannot be measured by any simple metric. Love, understanding, and compassion for one another does matter. Communication matters. Age, sex, and residency can’t create or destroy those things.
I am delighted at this surprisingly civil and thoughtful discussion. Hopefully I can contribute yet another dimension to an altogether tricky debate. I truly believe that living into the Holy Spirit and living by this breath of God requires an embrace of the dynamism of the individual’s self-hood as participant in community. We find life in relationship, we grasp life by relationship—as daughter, as sister, as lover, as friend, as a member of a larger people. For this reason, both the breadth and depth conversation is altogether encouraging!
I hope that the safety and respect of the conversation thus far continues as I make some statements about the lenses through which I see life. In the nature of full disclosure, I want to come out and say that I am a lesbian who went to Seminary and works in health services. Regardless of the debate on the civil implications in being denied full access to the entire legal system, including contracts of marriage, (a different issue in which I’ve already betrayed my hopes), I hope and believe that the stories and insights of lesbians and gays can benefit the entire conversation regarding what marriage and commitment “mean”, both theologically and personally. I hope that my experiences of sexuality and sexual expression are not dismissed here as invalid but taken as further nuance to the issues of sexuality and sexual expression. In that vein, I simply offer my two cents (or 25, considering how wordy I am, today) on the article referenced in this blog and the issues in the blog, itself:
1. Observation: The correlation between the assumed female partner in marriage and child-rearing in the article/blog/comments has been striking! Particularly overwhelming was the following quote from the article: “…[Christian women] risk the real possibility that, in holding out for a godly, chaste, uncommon man, she will wait a lot longer than she would like. Plenty will wait so long as to put their fertility in jeopardy. By that time, the pool of available men is hardly the cream of the crop—and rarely chaste.” While this correlation appears throughout history, most particularly in recent US history the church has placed an undue amount of emphasis on *female* purity and spirituality. I suspect there are at least these two reasons for this emphasis:
a.Industrialization: As labor became more factory-intensive and far less agriculturally oriented (and thus home-oriented), gender roles changed. Women’s exclusion from political and economic society (the men’s new societal realm) thereby consigned cultivation of “godly culture” to women’s duties. Women, while still excluded from traditional leadership roles, were provided other modes of participation—most notably, rearing children in bible study and theology. (B. Welter’s “Feminization of American Religion” is a great resource for further reading)
b.Fertility: Women, as we know, carry babies. I fear, though, that we’ve hypersexualized women, thus ensuring that young women’s perceptions of themselves are inseparable from their bodies, and that their ability to be Christ-like or otherwise moral actors is absolutely dependent on their sexuality. I’m encouraged, then, by the author’s move to discuss male spirituality and sexuality. I do wish, though, that male sexuality would be given its full measure of discussion, burden, and responsibility rather than assuming that “boys will be boys”.
2. Perhaps one of the reasons the conversation around sex and marriage is so contentious and complex is that we confine our understandings of sexual expression to the ways that individuals position bodies with respect to other bodies (whether that interaction happens inside or outside of a marriage covenant). Perhaps if we were less focused on the “dos” and “don’ts” of “appropriate” sex, our respective churches and denominations could work on fleshing out a full-bodied (pardon the pun) theology that supports healthy and life-giving sex interactions. I propose that sexuality has more to do with relationship than with sex, has more to do with giving life than giving birth, has more to do with that which is generative in our experience than with the positions of individual bodies. I propose that expressions of sexuality are an outgrowth of creation’s deep desire to participate in a loving, creative God. The command to “be fruitful and multiply,” then, may well be read alongside the Great Commission. If I might conflate the two: Go ye therefore and multiply life in all nations; Go ye therefore and let these lives and yours be fruitful! Suddenly, the notion sexuality is somehow wrapped up in the Body of Christ. Suddenly, this command is a call for each individual to carve out in the world new space for that which is life-giving, to cultivate relationships that allow the flourishing of each participant, to generate new possibilities for life. If a potential marriage is not cultivating this flourishing, then I’m not sure it should be promoted. If sex is not cultivating these ideals, then it is inappropriate regardless of whether it takes place inside or outside of marriage.
Admittedly, point 2 overlaps/reaffirms much of the point the blogger was trying to make in this post!
dee – Regardless of whether or not it overlaps or reiterates, I really like your take in your second point, and I think you sum it up very nicely in the end. I hope more people can adopt a “full-bodied theology” as you propose.
“If we focused more on those things, would everything else—healthy, fulfilling sex and relationships included—fall more organically into place, as God intended?”
I hope the answer is absolutely. I do think churches need to speak about this subject in a way that makes sense to kids, but I totally agree that maybe we should focus on the key principles of Christianity…that might do a whole lot more good.
Writing as a Southern Baptist girl who followed the letter and spirit of the “wait until marriage” law, I can tell you it’s no guarantee of anything. I could not in good conscience advise the three children of that marriage to wait until the wedding night with their prospective life partners. I’m not sorry I married their father, because I am happy to have those particular children in my life. But I knew from the first night, in a way that spelled doom, I had married a selfish person who did not understand the idea of caring fully for another person. I learned that my fear of being “too” sexual had drawn me into a marriage with someone who did not desire me particularly. And the selfishness and the lack of particular desire in dialogue with my own rigid sense of what was right and proper and my judgment on both him and myself made for a very, very unhappy marriage and his eventual departure for what he imagined would be a happier life.
Oddly enough, once I grieved fully the loss of the life I knew to be “right,” I learned to be happy. And eventually I fell in love and had the courage to get married again, to a person I knew could care for others and who found me particularly, well, desirable. What a relief!
We don’t live in a time when the culture demands and nearly guarantees that marriages will be stable and people will have time to work through their difficulties. The same loosening of laws that protects women from being treated as property also allows the less committed among us to take a walk. And whether we like it or not, that is the world in which our children live. Here’s what I want for mine (who are 23, 18 and 14 now). I want them to view themselves as whole people, loved body and soul by God. I want them to love themselves, body and soul, and to recognize how inextricable those two parts are. I want them to love another person, body and soul, and to regard that person’s wholeness to be as precious as their own. In talking to them, I’ve called it a Love Ethic where sex is concerned. Love yourself, love your partner, and remember that how you live is an expression of how you love God. It’s for them to work out when that happens, and I trust them to be true to their teaching.
I don’t know about anyone else, but as a 27-year-old engaged Christian woman, when I stood back and took a look at the marriages that I admired, I realized something very scary: they were ALL second marriages. I am talking about people in my CHURCH. It really threw me for a loop – not because I judge anyone for divorce, but the last thing you want when you’re beginning your own marriage is to entertain the notion that ‘this may not last’. I remember thinking, “But I don’t WANT a second marriage!” My comfort – after several conversations with people in said 2nd marriages – was my husband and I were both older – we were both 27 – and we had worked out a lot of issues. We’d broken up several times in our early twenties, and being in a relationship was not easy, but we had tremendous love for each other. Did we have premarital sex? Yes. With a considerable amount of guilt at times, though we didn’t live together. I just couldn’t do that to my parents. And honestly, I don’t know if we would have survived living together without being married! I like to joke that the only reason we survived the first year of marriage was that we had separate bathrooms. But I am thankful that we were able to grow up, together, yet not while totally bound and responsible for each other, in the same way that we now are, with a household and a kid. We love our life. I am so glad that we were older when we made our commitment to each other.
Reading the comments and discussion created here is so interesting. I just really believe that God, while He cares deeply for us, is not that concerned about what we do with our genitals. I could be wrong. I think we’ve twisted our own human preoccupation with sex into impossible rules and regulations. I refuse to raise my child with sexual guilt, for being a living, breathing HUMAN. I really like the idea of Songbird’s Love Ethics. To think that sex is all or nothing, that having it before marriage dooms your relationship – I can’t agree with that. But for those who make that choice, I respect them, and wish them well.
Wow, big subject! Lots of comments.
I think a reason it’s so stressed is because sex effects us so deeply. No pun, but it gets under our skin, more powerfully than so many other things (1 Cor. 6:18). I want our children to be equipped with some appropriate knowledge so they can make decisions for the good of their futures (and out of compassion, their girlfriends’ futures). The reason the message is so mandatory is because the opposing message is so loud. Holy smokes, it’s loud. There is sex everywhere — as a kid/adolescent, you’ll drown under it, if you don’t have someone kind and wise to help you make sense of things.
I met my husband when I was 16. Sex was a complicated issue, and even as a Christian I didn’t know how to navigate it. We didn’t have sex until we married (I was 22). This is personal, and not meant to be reflective of anyone else, but knowing what I know now, I feel certain that having sex before our marriage would have destroyed the relationship. I thank God we waited — that’s His grace, not my boast. As for now, I’m secure in the marriage. Sex was a tough issue for me, but that marital commitment was the stronger force. Again, I have to praise God for that; I would have crumpled without my husband’s promise.
Compassion is good. “Guard your heart” is also good (after all, a broken, hurting heart can’t function as healthily giving). As for marrying young — darn it, I wish people would stop writing other people’s love stories. God transcends our imaginations. If I meet Husband at 21, pray for us, drill us, counsel us, celebrate us, bless us. If I meet him at 62, ditto. And be there during the marriage, not just speculating before it.
(My exasperation is not directed at you, Kristin! — Love the provocative post!)
Jason, you make some really good points, like this one: “People should be getting married for the right reasons; love, partnership, and friendship among them.” And yes, when it comes to my own kids, I’d “rather see people having (responsible) sex before (a successful, lasting, loving) marriage than seeing kids jump into marriage just so they can “do the deed” without guilt.” Thanks for devoting so much time and thought to a great discussion!
Katie, thank you for sharing your own story—it’s touching, inspiring and a great example of yet another way to go about figuring out what love is, and when the time is right for marriage. Not according to society or the church, but according to you and your partner. I love your clergy perspective, too, particularly what you said about marrying older couples: “I find that because of all of the stuff that has gone before, it is so much easier to talk seriously and deeply about why this commitment, this covenant, this marriage is important. When I ask them, ‘why?’ they have honest answers.” That was certainly my experience as Jason and I went through pre-marital counseling (but I guess I’m biased!).
Rebecca, I don’t blame you for a second for feeling this way: “I don’t like that society/religion/whatever pressures you to [get married]” I’m not sure what people think they’re accomplishing—even if the young people being pressured end up getting married, won’t they be prone to resentment and bitterness?
Genevieve, I think you summed up this general sentiment quite well: “the pressure to apply the early marriage solution to all relationships is too cookie-cutter to work for everyone.” And you mention it again, at the end, when you talk about different—and valid—paths to happiness. I guess that’s at the heart of what many of us are talking about here. There are no formulas that everyone can follow, step by step, to ensure marital success and happiness. And sometimes we even surprise ourselves, by deeply wanting something we didn’t think we would. After my divorce, I imagined I’d be in a long-term relationship again, but that I’d never marry. I no longer felt like marriage meant anything. Then I met Jason and realized I didn’t want to walk away from the institution of marriage—I wanted to really understand it and embrace it, for the first time.
Ryan, hi again. :) I don’t want to pick on you, but there are a couple of things in your response to Genevieve that I just have to take issue with, as Christian mom who has been divorced (someone has to advocate for us!). One is this statement: “I doubt people having premarital sex think anything of divorce. Why would they? That’s why they’re having premarital sex.” This just doesn’t make any sense to me, and it’s not true. *Some* people who have premarital sex might not be thinking much about divorce, but to suggest that everyone who has premarital sex is super casual about marriage and divorce simply isn’t accurate or fair. This statement about children of unmarried parents also troubles me: “they miss the opportunity to have the strength I know a traditional marriage brings….” I can’t even begin to tell you how many sad, unloved, neglected, messed up and even abused children are raised in homes with “a traditional marriage.” Perhaps you could make this claim in an ideal world filled with ideal marriages, but in our world, it just isn’t always true.
Meredith, I’m glad you brought that lost point back into the conversation! The point of my post might not end up being the point of our conversation, and that’s just fine, but I would really love to hear what people think about that question: What important issues are we ignoring? I love that you brought ALL relationships into the equation, and how you put this: “Children and teens who are happy and secure in themselves and their lives are less likely to be talked into something they’re not comfortable with – whether it’s premarital sex or early marriage.” I completely agree.
Coming to the end of the comments, I see most, not all, people either missed the point or more likely don’t agree with this: Immorality is bad; chastity is good. I think because of past mistakes we tend to take the easy road to justifying our own sins instead of facing them and repenting of them. That’s the easy way. We rather have people agree with our decisions rather than admit we’re wrong. Immorality is wrong. Always will be. The only way to release ourselves of that guilt is to repent. That repentance is through Christ and his sacrifice. Always will be.
Ryan, I think you missed the point. Nobody thinks immorality isn’t bad–they just don’t think it’s immoral to have loving sex before marriage. You might think everyone else is taking the easy road–I think you’re taking the easy road, because you’re not even questioning yourself, or open to another way. You’ve accepted the orders delivered to you from those who came before you, seemingly without wondering if they’re accurately representing God’s will. You assume that everyone who doesn’t think exactly like you is disrespectful of marriage and has no problem with divorce. It’s very easy to put your foot down and insist that everyone else is taking the moral low road and that your way is the right way. It’s hard to have a constructive discussion in which everyone considers more than one possible way to true happiness, or even happiness in Christ.
I can appreciate your faithfulness, as I used to sound very much like you on that front, but I can tell you that you’re closing yourself off from a whole world of fascinating, liberating, and faithful discussions with your attitude. As you’re in the minority here, you’ve decided to say that everyone’s either missed the point or supports immorality. I’m not saying that the majority’s always right, because it’s not the case, but when there are so many reasoned arguments being made around you, couldn’t you at least take a second look? Couldn’t you take a moment to question the ego that wants so badly to be right on all counts?
I’m so impressed with the elegant and nuanced ways that all the posters here have made their cases–Kristin, you clearly hit on a vital topic, here. Excellent work posting AND moderating!
Genevieve,
What evidence do you have that supports your decision? I have the word of God. I have the word of his prophets. I have modern-day revelation. I have personal revelation. I have personal experience. I have the blinding reality all around me. You have the masses, the mainstream, your opinion. I’ve checked and yep, immorality is still bad. Premarital sex is immorality. That I am in the minority here, on this blog (written by someone I have some respect for) is no surprise. And that I should receive criticism because my morals do not shift in a world of constantly shifting values is no surprise either. It’s not my way, it’s God’s way. There is more than enough evidence, if you want it, that premarital sex is immoral. And if you disagree, there are plenty of people to support you and make you feel good about yourself and your decisions. If that’s freedom and liberation to you, by all means.
Ryan -
Immorality is defined differently by different people. It’s not about shifting moral values. You have no more or less authority on immorality than the rest of us. We all form our ideas of right and wrong based on the evidence that we see. Yours has been different from ours and you’ve concluded that premarital sex is, without question, immoral and wrong. Others have made different interpretations of similar and dissimilar experiences, and have determined that is isn’t always immoral and/or wrong.
My evidence is my own experience and the reality around me. Studies show that almost all people engage in premarital sex. Scientists have studies the effects of it on the success of marriage, and while there is a small correlation, they suspect that part of the reason they see it is because of people, possibly similar to you, that are determined to be (or act) happy because they are supposed to be to fit into a label that they cling to. I think honesty and living a loving, compassionate life is more important than worrying about premarital sex.
Just to throw a different perspective in on the sex before marriage front – First, were Adam and Eve (whether they are part of our Christian mythology or actually real people) ever married? Did they have a ceremony in which a clergy person blessed their relationship?
In much of biblical tradition/culture, marriage consisted of a father giving his daughter to another man and after a weeklong celebration they would consumate the property transaction through intercourse. When Samson marries his first Philistine wife, they have the wedding banquet for a week and then he leaves when he gets mad at the guests and never “seals the deal” – when he comes back to claim his wife a year later, the father of the bride has already given her to another. In other cases, a sexual encounter would be followed by the man being forced to marry the woman – or else death might be the consequence.
I got to thinking about that and the movie “What Happens in Vegas” where Ashton Kutcher and Cameron Diaz have a wild time partying in Vegas, and wake up married the next morning. The divorce judge won’t let them divorce until they have lived together for so and so long. They were absolutely strangers – had sex/got married – and spent the rest of the film learning about what commitment, love, and marriage were really all about. It’s probably a closer example to “biblical marriage” than we get in most other places!
Our modern day romances are so much about the feelings of love and choosing who we marry that it’s difficult to even apply biblical principles to a radically different social phenomenon.
Katie,
I think absolutely we can say Adam and Eve were married. In a wedding, we publicly give vows. There was no public in the garden, so a communal gathering is irrelevant. As for a priest — they walked in open fellowship with God, who created them and their union. What more of a priest could we ask for?
Regarding morality vs. immorality, I follow Ryan’s expressions. Morality is defined in the authority of the bible as the word of God. His word is whole, leading to freedom, not pain. I’ve proven to be a deficient judge of what’s good for me. God as Creator is constant and gracious, giving perception and health through His word. It’s the only word to stand on.
The wedding for me isn’t about ceremonial blessing. That appropriately sounds artificial. Thinking past the context of historical wrongdoings, the wedding ceremony is about Husband and Wife declaring to each other in the presence of all who care to hear that We’re In This; we’re committed to one another; we will not let go. It’s about the community supporting their union, collectively going to God for the blessing of the marriage and the individuals. That promise, that covenant relationship, gives me security to be vulnerable. It’s a big part of what kept us together when we, in the young-20s youth of our marriage, were navigating rough waters. I don’t understand how being with a person, no matter how sincere, is healthy when it’s premature of his public declaration to serve, value, and uphold me. Isn’t that wholesome, noble, and worth waiting for? (–Though certainly not to be rushed into, as it sounds the article may have been suggesting.) That said, I know full well that marriages fail. Spouses are broken, sometimes coercive, and a one-time promise on a wedding day doesn’t amount to a hill of beans when your spouse becomes manipulative and control-seeking.
KT – Good stuff. I share your concerns. I got married young (22) and am today celebrating my 8th anniversary with my wife who was 20 when we married. It has been a good marriage, but we have had many ups and downs like everyone does. Even though we got married early we sympathize with waiting, and see much value in taking time to make sure things are right.
Marriage can’t survive on instant gratification and and selfishness the way our culture so often does, and unfortunately, we as Christians don’t have the best theology or practices to counter cultural/political/capitalist influences that subvert the vision of a Christian life.
It’s here in these practices and theology that we need to develop, not simply hoping people will have self-control, or talk about stuff more, but actually put into daily practice the kinds of things we need to have marriages that are mutual and help make us holy.
toyfoto, this strikes me as very true: “While I don’t think marrying late makes you any more successful in marriage than marrying early, I do think it gives you a better chance at achieving the maturity to do so.” Well put. Thanks for jumping into the conversation.
dee, I’m really glad you sensed this place is safe and respectful enough to add this “other dimension” to the conversation. I was wondering when the topic would overtly broaden in this way—issues surrounding same sex relationships and attitudes about women in general were very much on my mind as I read the Christianity Today piece. Thanks for all of the great insight and additional food for thought. There is so much I’d like to respond to—or even better, have an in-person conversation with you about!—but I’ll focus on just two points you make that are really striking and well-put. First this: “Perhaps if we were less focused on the ‘dos’ and ‘don’ts’ of ‘appropriate’ sex, our respective churches and denominations could work on fleshing out a full-bodied…theology that supports healthy and life-giving sex interactions.” Amen! Also, I love your thoughts on “be fruitful and multiply” and the great commission. Fascinating and new, for me. Thank you for speaking up.
Tyler, you’re absolutely right—all of these “Christian principles” need to be talked about in churches/communities in a way that makes sense to and resonates with kids and teens. That’s key. And it doesn’t mean simplifying and dumbing it down, it just sometimes means approaching it from a different direction, and using different language (although I’m hardly an expert on teens, other than the fact that I was one). Anyway, thanks so much for sending the original tweet a couple weeks ago that alerted me to the Christianity Today article, and for your own post on the subject, which got all of my thoughts churning.
Songbird, your assessment of your first marriage is amazing. Your deep, inner awareness of his selfishness, your own fear of being too sexual, and your understanding that you in particular weren’t desired—although this particular story is yours, my guess is that so many people can relate to aspects of it. Thank you for sharing it so honestly and eloquently. Also, can I borrow your summary of what you want your kids to know—the “love ethic”? That’s what I want for my kids, too.
Sam, your story is so great. I love how you worked through various issues while you were dating and engaged, and I love how you share the whole story so honestly and matter-of-factly. That doesn’t mean that the way you went about love and marriage is the right way for everyone (I know you don’t think that, either), but it’s so valid and real and beautiful, and I’m glad it was and is so right for you.
Writing my comment before I read the others because I don’t to get off track.
You pose some great questions. As the mother of daughters AND sons, I wonder what I will do differently with them and how much of it is in reaction to my own parents or church upbringing.
One thing that troubles me is the apparent assumption that alcoholism is a sin. While it may be sinful to become inebriated, is it sinful if the drinking then is no longer physically able to function without drink. As the child of an alcoholic, I have deep respect and empathy for those who can get and stay sober. I realize there are others who find the “alcoholism as illness” to be an excuse. I have seen DTs; they are not fun.
But…what I want to teach all my kids is a proper respect for their bodies, how to make good decisions based on fact and faith, and to be thoughtful participants in the world around them. In a perfect world, I would want my kids to wait until marriage to experience sex. But I find that argument that you can’t have a fulfilled relationship empirically disproved.
And getting married younger may quell those hormonal desires but does it suit you? Hard to believe the church would participate in a potential disaster producing activity.
That is all.
Wow Kristin, good going on getting this one started. Fantastic post, and generally some great, constructive, follow-up comments.
I’ll withhold my two cents worth – there is already a wealth of opinions on here.
Great reading, and plenty to think about. Thank you.
@ Emma – thanks for your response to that specific question I asked – I think it got to the heart of what I was thinking/feeling.
We put so much emphasis today on the ceremony as being the demarcation as pre- and post- marital life, and I think in many ways, a couple has built the kind of covenantal relationship you discuss either long before the wedding – OR – hasn’t really even committed themselves to them until far into their “marriage”
Katie Z., I have so been enjoying your comments and perspective. I truly love the phrase you just used–”covenantal relationship.” That really resonates with me, with the vision I have of a loving relationship, the kind any just and good God would want his people to have. In my opinion, there is no miraculous transformation that the marriage ceremony casts over a couple that makes their covenant good and holy in itself. They must find the love and respect deep within themselves to honor one another, long before they can call it a beautiful union sanctioned by God. This “covenantal state” is what I hope my one-day children can have, is what I hope for every couple, truly. And kudos to Dee, for adding such a clearly well-informed, and richly-painted dimension to all this!
In response to a part of this debate which I see is fruitless ( :D ), and for anyone who might be wondering where this former-Christian is coming from , I don’t rely on the Bible for my “evidence,” as many of you do, but I also do not rely on “the masses” or “the mainstream”–I think for myself. I, too, form opinions based on personal conviction, and what I see as the reality around me. We may see different realities, different stories. I can, and do, however, respect the Biblical perspective that many of you use, and hope that the religious among you can respect my perspective as well, without choosing to assume the worst of me. It seems that most of you do, which impresses me and gives me great hope!
This is such a great thread. Kristin, I wish I could get people this fired up about Miso-Crusted Eggplant, but for some reason it hasn’t worked that way so far, LOL!
Emma, you make some good points about how and why sex is a different issue, both personally and culturally. And amen to this: “I wish people would stop writing other people’s love stories. God transcends our imaginations. If I meet Husband at 21, pray for us, drill us, counsel us, celebrate us, bless us. If I meet him at 62, ditto. And be there during the marriage, not just speculating before it.”
C. Wess, this is one of those issues that’s complicated because it’s so deeply personal, yet our personal narratives are so rooted in church/faith/belief/community (if that’s a part of our lives, that is). I’m glad you brought the role of the church (as community and theology) back into the discussion. This seems exactly right: “It’s here in these practices and theology that we need to develop, not simply hoping people will have self-control, or talk about stuff more, but actually put into daily practice the kinds of things we need to have marriages that are mutual and help make us holy.”
Jennifer, I can see how my reference to alcoholism as a sin rubbed you the wrong way. I don’t think I wrote that part as carefully as I should have. My wonderful mother-in-law has been sober for 20 years now, and I fully respect all that she’s struggled with and admire all she has accomplished. Regarding what you said about your kids, I fully agree—the faith-fact combination is so important.
Hamish, thanks for all of your reading and thinking. :) Just knowing the wheels are turning in all of our minds is an exciting prospect, isn’t it?
Great job, Kristin! I’m not sure I’ve ever seen a discussion this entailed on a blog before – such long and thoughtful comments. So much has been said, and the conversation has moved on to a new post, so I’m not sure I have anything new to add. The one thing that did come to mind, however, was while I was reading the last paragraph. What does Jesus want from us? I think more than anything – for us to know how very much He loves us. When we begin to fully know this, so many other things begin to fall into place.
I blogged about this today too… but I actually love what the article is saying. Partially because I’m the exact story he’s writing about (married at 21 and we’re now 33 and succeeding) but the sex part I think is very relevant too.
It’s such a tough thing… and I don’t think the author is vilifying one sin over another here. But there are many signs that show that if sex outside of marriage is wrong… and we’re so desirous before it…. then maybe we should be just beginning enjoying life together earlier.
I don’t think it’s across the board applicable…. but its a very relevant point I think
jenx67 and Dave, I’m so sorry for the delayed response! Too much travel and lots of deadlines really throw me off track, when it comes to staying on top of responding to blog comments. Anyway…better late than never? :)
jenx67, yes, the level of discussion on this post has really blown me away. I am honored and blessed to know so many thoughtful, wise people. And I couldn’t agree more with what you said here: “What does Jesus want from us? I think more than anything – for us to know how very much He loves us. When we begin to fully know this, so many other things begin to fall into place.”
Dave, thanks for letting us know about your post on the same topic. I love hearing different perspectives and personal stories around an issue. I guess that’s maybe my main point—that different scenarios and different people call for different decision-making tactics. The person you really wanted to have sex with at 21 happened to be (it seems) a wonderful life-long match for you; the person I wanted to have sex with at 21, didn’t. So do we encourage everyone who *thinks* they’ve met “The One” to dive into marriage? And if it’s not “across the board applicable,” as you say, then why write an article for Christianity Today as if it is the right way for everyone?
Sooooo happy you wrote tis – ere’smy thoughts
Mark Regnerus has no clue what he is talking about. This is the continuation of a weak man justifying his own downfalls. Are you having sex outside of marriage? Its wrong. Also, it makes you a weak boy if you you can’t resist. MEN do what boys cannot. I am 22 i have been dating for 4 of the past five years. Two wonderful women, two serious relationships. One for two years, and the current relationship for almost two years. I am sexually attracted and tempted by the women I date. But you know what? I DON’T HAVE SEX WITH THEM. It isn’t THAT hard…if you can control yourself like a human being.
Women – if there are no guys in your church that you can date without being pressured to date – leave your church – cause you go to a church full of losers.
Gary, thanks for your comment. I really respect what you’re saying about choosing to resist sex in the face of temptation, but I would hesitate to say that people who don’t resist are weak (or losers). I think they’re simply making different choices based on different priorities.
You know what, you are right – I should have worded that different…men who PRESSURE their girlfriends/fiances/whatever to have sex with them are losers. Sorry bout that!
(it is my personal opinion that a true Christian who opts for premarital sex is weak in that moment (I understand why you would disagree though, believe me I am no where NEAR perfect, but I think this article was more justification than explanation.))
iI would like to know why is it so intristic for muslim men to have young unde-age brides? what fulfilment if any can be actually derived from such a sordid union? what is governments doingfor these young girls, who seem to have no way out?
I really liked Kristin’ word “formula”. We have to be careful in the church of deriving any formula that is extra-Biblical – such as marrying late is the way to go, or let’s all marry young. Sometimes I think we forget that Jesus in the flesh was a single dude with no children…but I digress.
Each person who was in the Hebrews 11 “Hall of Fame of Faith” had their own journeys and completely different life stages/situations.
Let’s celebrate what God’s doing in each others’ lives not comparing, copying, or conforming to anything less.